As I see it there are two separate questions here:
1) What license is required to author a DSL
2) What license is required to use a DSL
For 1) I guess the main question is which edition of Visual Studio will be required, and whether one will need to join the VSIP program in order to author and distribute a DSL widely.
For 2) a lot more questions come to mind:
a) Which version of Visual Studio will be able to host a DSL
b) Will there be a "stripped down" SKU of Visual Studio that acts just as a host for other DSLs I am thinking about a DSL for a user group that has no need for a programming language at all. They wouldn't need the IDE support for C# etc. at all. I could imagine a Visual Studio Bare, that includes nothing but the ability to host a DSL, and a Visual Studio Team System Bare, that includes the Source Code repository and work item tracking features but nothing else.
c) For commercial producers of DSL: Will there be a way to package their DSL with a version of Visual Studio I am thinking about someone who wants to distribute a demo version of his DSL (and doesn't want to limit his reach to people with a licensed Visual Studio for the demo).
d) Will there be a way to integrate the artefact generating features into the msbuild process without buying anything from MS There are communities (i.e. the scientific area) where people have a strong need to at least provide other agents (i.e. researchers) the ability to compile something without any purchase.
I am sure there are more details to structure this question, but these are the ones that came to mind right now. I would hope that other participants give feedback on the various points and how they map to their scenarios. And hopefully Microsoft will take that into consideration
Best,
David
Licensing & pricing
Greg Dirst
The generated template headers have sample status (although they're mostly only two lines long - one model directive and an include directive).
If you want, you should take ownership of this code by removing the sample disclaimer to incorporate it into your products after reviewing it to ensure it meets your needs.
The generated code is, of course, your own.
The Other Bill
Gareth
Niklas_
Schizm
dkbryan
Thanks,
Bart
XanthViper
Is there any progress on this subject
Thanks,
Bart
John Mollman
Alright, since I started the thread I should probably outline how we intend to use DSL and how I see the licensing issue.
I am doing a PhD in earth system modelling, specifically concerning economic questions. It is fair to say that the big atmosphere, ocean etc. models all run on some Unix flavour (these are really big machines, just a couple of days ago I was shown our storage room where we have 3.5 peta bytes of storage, quite impressive). But in the economics sector the models are much simpler and normally run on PCs. The structure of these models is always very similiar, there is a huge amount of repetitive code, but in general every research starts from scratch in C++ or something like that. I believe the potential for using DSLs is huge in this area.
I see three types of roles if something like that would be attempted:
1) People that build a DSL for this domain, i.e. this is something I hope to assemble a team here. Generally that will be a very small group, probably all academics. I don't see a big problem if we need licenses for Team System editions to do that since I believe there are good licensing programs for academic institutions.
2) People that build models (now, I am talking scientific models here). If there is a huge barrier for other researchers to try out such a DSL the whole idea is not going to work. Generally I would say that anyone who is working with Windows in this environment is facing an uphill battle in the first place, but if I tell fellow researchers (that are most likely located at other institutes that might not have any of the academic license agreements with MS in place) that they need a $10,000 license of Team System Suite in order to look at the tools... Well, they won't do that. The general spirit here is that researchers are willing to look at new technology, but it must be simple and quick. Exchange of models is a huge part in the scientific process, so it is essential that I have some way to tell someone "Just download the DSL from my page, then download my new climate model and have a look at it". So, in my scenario it is very, very important that the designers and editors that I create for a DSL run in one of the small Visual Studio editions, or that I can package my DSL with a "bare" version of Visual Studio that only runs my DSL (actually, that would be the ideal soluation).
3) People that run the scientific models. I think one of the previous posters mentioned that group of people. Since I believe the general idea is that DSLs produce code that then is compiled I don't see a big problem here, since the compiled EXEs etc. will obviously run on any Windows version without any Visual Studio license.
I think my general point is that I am working in an environment where Windows is almost not present. I see quite a opportunity to increase productivity of researchers by magnitudes with the DSL technology which might change this at the low end of some simpler scientific models. But people in this environment are not waiting for the next cool thing from MS, if there is a big hastle (in terms of money and in terms of huge software packages to install) in using the tools, that would be too bad...
Hope that helps,
David
Aner
Just to comment from the MS side of things we are actively working out answers to these, and we'll certainly take into account any feedback or scenarios (especially scenarios) you'd like to share. Our current plan is to have pricing & licensing info available by late May, so now is the time to share your thoughts.
Thanks,
Grayson Myers
DSL Tools Developer
pdhot
dennis_dieckmann
b) Will there be a "stripped down" SKU of Visual Studio that acts just as a host for other DSLs I am thinking about a DSL for a user group that has no need for a programming language at all. They wouldn't need the IDE support for C# etc. at all. I could imagine a Visual Studio Bare, that includes nothing but the ability to host a DSL, and a Visual Studio Team System Bare, that includes the Source Code repository and work item tracking features but nothing else.
So, my point is why Visual Studio as single hosting model Why not a .NET component
I am aware how Visual Studio shell is designed, but I think cost of things can be viewed differenly when taking into account other MS products with programmability and potential for DSL - SQL DTS, BizTalk, Exchange.
Regards,
Mike