CE.Net 4.2 and Compact Framework 2.0

CE.Net 4.2 and Compact Framework 2.0

• dean183

  That is good news about the Psion NetBook being upgraded to Windows CE 5 in 2006. In the interim, we will be continuing with the VS 2003 tools.
  I hope that Microsoft will decide to support the DataGridView for CF 2.0.
  
  Robbie
  
  
  

• David Crocker

  Hi Ilya,
  
  Thank you very much for the follow-up. We have previously contacted Psion Teklogic about CE 5.0 and received no indication that they will implement this OS on the NetBook Pro. I asked again today, but don't expect any positive results.
  I will contact the Microsoft product feedback center as you suggest.
  Regarding DataGrid, DataGridView is a vast improvement. Some of the functions are awkward to use, but the component is generally well designed and has features similar to those of the better third party components. We do use ComponentOne's FlexGrid, but it is an expensive add-on and is not problem free. Initial testing indicates that DataGridView works well on the Windows (PC) platform and it has several features that are essential for our application that are missing in DataGrid. It is hard for me to believe that it wouldn't have been a simple matter to supply this control with CF 2.0. Interestingly, it is supplied as its own DLL with CF 1.0 rather than are being integral to the CF module.
  
  
  

• quodlibet

  DataGridView might be an improvement, but it's not essential as it can be replaced, not to mention diminished value on small device screens. Desktop framework did not have it in V1, and yet we have great applications, so it's here not because developers can't leave without it, but because it's more convenient to use and provides better results in shorter times.
  Don't get me wrong, it is very important and that’s what NETCF is all about. However, we have to keep balance between size, speed and functionality.
  For example, in early versions of NETCF UI was ported from desktop to allow pretty much all the functionality. I can hear you saying "how come we don't have that now, that would be great!". Not really. You see, it was so slow on devices, it was unusable. You click a button and wait 5 seconds for reaction. Today pretty much all controls in NETCF are thin wrapper over native CE controls and UI is very fast, yet compatible with desktop.
  So, even if it is possible to port DataGridView  to NETCF, it probably will be too slow and too big. And it's not so easy as you might think. It uses existing DataGrid functionality which is missing on NETCF (CF has a custom made data grid with emphasis on speed and size). And if we port desktop's grid, we'll have to bring in other stuff , say in ComponentModel. Before you know it' we have megabytes of slow, unusable code. If you don't believe me, find technology prevue for NETCF V1 form about 2001 and try it.

  
  
  

• Debi123

  I'm a big proponent of supporting CE 4.2, I'm very much against supporting PPC 2002. Here's why:
  
  -PPC 2002 devices are beyond average device life span already (about 3 years, dead battery and bad touch screen after that).
  -Newer PPC 2002 devices which are more or less functional (semi-alive battery and not that broken touch screen) can be updated to PPC 2003 in most cases for a small fee. Performance gain alone worth 40 pounds (or buy from US site, it usually costs $30).< xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

  -New powerful devices are available and cheap.
  -Severe resource constraints on older devices.
  
  I'm not even mentioning huge extra effort which small NETCF team would have to put out to support another OS version.
   

  PPC 02 support is comparable to DataGridView support: few will benefit from it, but many won't get really needed features (like CAS and hosting, for example).

  
  
  

• burov

  Hey Ilya,
  
  This is great news!  Do you know if VS2005 will also support 4.2, so that we can do debugging directly
  
  We have also met with both of our vendors and both have plans for supporting 5.0, though no idea what other issues will arise (like support by third part components) or how much cost we will incur to keep our development environment current.  Timelines are looking are looking like late Q1 of 2006, so we will have a coupel of viable options available to us.
  
  I appreciate your assistance and communication on this matter.
  
  Now, if I can only get the SQL Mobile guys on the same page...
  
  Thanks again,
  Matt
  

• rpgoldberg

  V2 is shipped, new features are extremely unlikely to be added. So, please do not expect DataGridView any time soon. If you need this functionality, you can use 3^rd party products or implement a custom control which mimics DataGridView.
  
  As to CE 4.2, please see this:< xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

  http://www.danielmoth.com/Blog/2005/11/cf-v20-on-wince-42.html

  
  
  

• ieee488

  Hi Ilya,
  
  That is great news that SP1 will add CF 2 support for CE 4.2 devices.
  Regarding DataGridView, we are using it on the PC platform and have found that it has capability that was previously only available with third party products. We have ComponentOne's FlexGrid (Mobile), but the DataGridView would provide all of the required functionality if it was available with CF 2.
  
  Robbie
  
  
  

• aaaaNNNN

  You're right, CE 4.2 is not supported and it’s not fair. Perhaps, we’ve underestimated industry’s inertia with switching to new OS version. I would propose you go ahead and submit your desire to get NETCF V2 on CE 4.2 on product feedback center along with your device description:
  
  http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/productfeedback
  
  As to the DataGridView, I would completely disagree with you - it's hardly essential. I don't believe we've got any requests for it at all, so it’s not just my opinion.
  
  COM interop, MSMQ support, P/Invoke marshaling, DateTimePicker, performance work, serial port support, encryption - that were the most requested features and they all are in along with some more most requested features. < xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

   

  DataGrid in NETCF is not the most powerful one, but it does the job in most cases. There are techniques to extend it to make it editable and there are 3^rd parties grids available.

   

  You’re welcome to submit request for DataGridView to product feedback in any case.  We’ll evaluate possibility of adding it in the next release.

  
  
  

• Colin M.

  I agree with Carl, above, what about PocketPC 2002! ! (Microsoft (r) Pocket PC v3.0.11171)
  
  Several of our customers are using Intermec devices from the days we wrote our systems in embedded VB (actually it was only this time last year!)
  
  We upgraded to vs2003 (briefly) but have done most of our redevelopment of our systems on vs2005 (beta2 & now final release), as we needed to use new features like message queueing, and also because evb is rubbish to develop & debug on.
  
  Fortunately we can still develop for PocketPC 2003 (Microsoft (r) Pocket PC v4.20.13100), but is there any way of using vs2005 & PocketPC 2002
  
  The only other option we have is to upgrade all of our customers devices to 2003, at a potential cost of ￡40 per device!
  
  Boss's face --> :-(
  
  

• ldcooke

  I've contacted Psion about their upgrading plans. They replied that they will port their machines to Windows CE 5.0 in january 2006. Testing will take about two months. So, let's say... june 2006

  
  

• Sergey Kononov

  Hey Ilya and Robbie,
  
  Thanks for the feedback and info.  Good to know there are others struggling with this issue.
  
  I will indeed follow-up with the Feedback Center on this and I encourage others dealing with this problem to do the same.
  
  In the meantime if anyone else has any other options for dealing with this issue.  Would love to hear them.
  
  Thanks again,
  Matt
  

• alden

  I would like to add my own situation as a developer, I am sure it is representative for many deployments out there:
  
  - I am still running PocketPC 2002 on my iPAQ 5450 development device.
  - VS.NET 2005 requires PocketPC 2003.
  - PocketPC 2003 is no longer available from HP because they already ship Windows Mobile 5.0.
  - Windows Mobile 5.0 is not available for my device yet, it is scheduled to be available in January 2006.
  
  For me that means I can't use my development device for testing CF 2.0 for now, I can only use the emulator.

  
  
  

• Jason Barrett

  I want to second Matt's comments. We run our applications on a Psion Teklogic NetBook Pro which is one of the few "hand holdable" computers that has a large LCD display and runs on the Windows NET 4.2 OS. At this point, it seems to be unlikely that Psion will upgrade the NetBook to Windows CE 5.0 and the inability to use CF 2.0 on the 4.2 platform is a very serious limitation.
  A second serious limitation is that DataGridView is not supported on CF 2.0. DataGrid is, but this component has very limited capability. Why didn't MS make DataGridView available for the mobile platform One of the goals of VS 2005 is supposed to be improved compatibility. Unfortunately, we have the mess that CF 2.0 is not available for NET 4.2 and essential Framework 2.0 components are not available for Compact Framework 2.0. Also, VS 2005 apparently cannot generate executables for the NET 4.2 platform. This is very poor software engineering and planning on the part of Microsoft.
  VS 2005 appears to be a pretty good software development environment, but it is useless to us for smart devices applications because of the above limitations.
  
  
  
  

• W S Jones

  Hi Ilya,
  
  Your comments are appreciated and I do understand about the limitations of a PDA.
  NET 4.2 devices like the NetBook Pro are, however, a very different situation. There is a relatively large sized screen, roughly 5" x 7" in the case of the NetBook, and 4.2 is quite different from Windows Mobile 2003 in spite of the fact that it forms the foundadtion for the latter OS. We have no difficulty running sophisticated GPS navigation software and a SQL CE based medical information system on the NetBook. Our software uses third party grids that do work efficiently and I have no doubt that Microsoft can produce similar components. At least on the Netbook Pro, there are no significant limitations of the application software of interest due to screen size, memory capacity, or CPU throughput.
  
  
  
  
• CE.Net 4.2 and Compact Framework 2.0